[Lee_EONNext]

@retrotecchie Interesting.

[meldrewreborn]

In the 1950's, Allied Suppliers was far and away the largest multiple grocer in the UK - Brands such as Lipton, Home and Colonial, Maypole, but competition from Tesco and Victor Value was on the rise. I believe the Chairman told an Annual General Meeting one year that "there would always be a place for the counter service shop".

He was so so wrong - wasn't he?

[Andy65]

I've driven EVs when mine have been in for service, from a driving perspective I quite like them, especially with maximum regen.
From a practical point of view though there are too may negatives for me. There's the cost, range which plummets with speed, charging time and infrastructure etc.

I've read some suggest that the cost will drop as they become more popular, or as Chinese manufacturers enter the UK market. I can't see either happening, if customers are buying EVs now at around £8-10k more than their ICE equivalent then why would the manufacturers drop their price?
BYD are now selling their Seal in the UK but are selling it at a price similar to the Tesla 3, no sensible business will sell a product lower than they can get away with.

For most of my journeys an EV would be ideal, but when I do go on a longer journey I don't want to have to plan where to recharge on route. Then there's the worry if the charging point(s) will be occupied, working, slow because the grid can't supply at the full rate or there's another car on the same station etc. Charging stations are rarely covered and then there's the time it takes to charge, and that's only to 80%. So if you're doing a long motorway run the range drops dramatically with speed, then your second leg is even shorter because you've effectively only got 60% of the battery to use - 80%-20%. I can comfortably drive 400 miles at 70mph without filling up, an EV would probably add 2 hours.

What I find odd about the intended ban on new ICE cars is that it's banning the cleanest ever engines but does nothing for existing higher polluting cars. Most manufacturers are selling hybrids just to boost their 'green' credentials because they can sell them due to zero BiK.

I think battery technology has to go a very long way before EVs become a practical proposition for all new car buyers, as does the charging infrastructure. I can see the ban on ICEs being pushed back again and expect manufacturers to find an alternative to EVs.

[JoeSoap]

Originally Posted by Andy65

… I've read some suggest that the cost will drop as they become more popular, or as Chinese manufacturers enter the UK market. I can't see either happening, if customers are buying EVs now at around £8-10k more than their ICE equivalent then why would the manufacturers drop their price?

The cost of some nearly new EVs is becoming quite attractive. A well known car supermarket has a 73 plate MG4 with under 3000 miles and a 79 month warranty for £19,999. Also a 22 plate Corsa with under 13,000 miles and 15 month warranty for £14,599… they claim a saving of £16,856 on the new list price £31,455.

I’m a low mileage driver these days but for some reason I’m still not tempted.

[geoffers]

Originally Posted by JoeSoap

....I’m a low mileage driver these days but for some reason I’m still not tempted.

@JoeSoap - I'm also a low mileage driver so having a hybrid gives me the EV benefits, but allows for the occasional longer journey

Surely the saving on motoring costs is a great incentive if you're a low mileage driver.

As well as the current zero road tax my fuel costs are about ¼ of my previous petrol car

My battery range (in the summer) is over 40 miles or more with a bit of regeneration - slightly less in the winter. On the Next Drive tariff for short local purely electric journeys my costs are about 4p per mile : longer local journeys with a bit of ICE use maybe 6p - 10p depending on the amount of fuel used.

Occasional motorway journeys using the ICE - saving the battery for the urban drives at each end - come closer to a normal ICE usage, but it's still cheaper than my previous petrol car.

As a comparison, my old petrol car averaged around 22 p per mile

[JoeSoap]

@geoffers

There are certainly some benefits and I wouldn't necessarily rule out a hybrid, particularly a non-plug-in. My old diesel is a top-spec model and I love it. It currently has zero road tax and good MPG although I think I may have to pay about £20 a year soon for the road tax. I averaged 60mpg when I was working and my best journey was 30 miles at just over 80mpg. I drive so little that I don't even check now but from experience I would say I get over 50mpg as an average.

Maybe I've watched too many You Tube clips about the true cost of running an EV once depreciation has been taken into account and the potential cost of a new battery. That MG4 I alluded-to did make me think though. £20,000 divided by the 79 month warranty worked out at a maximum depreciation of £253 per month if kept for the duration. Still not tempted though. That Corsa I mentioned must have depreciated at several hundred per month for the unfortunate first owner from new. I'll stick to filling up every other month at the multitude of filling stations... as long as the tanker drivers aren't on strike 😂

[geoffers]

Originally Posted by JoeSoap

@geoffers

There are certainly some benefits and I wouldn't necessarily rule out a hybrid, particularly a non-plug-in.

One of the problems I see with a non-plugin hybrid is that you're still burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity that the hybrid runs on - there must also be some losses in the internal energy conversion process (you don't get something for nothing, and "can't change the laws of physics" 🤓)

With a PHEV hopefully a lot of the electricity will be coming from non-carbon renewables.

Another issue for low mileage diesel owners is that the engine particulate filters never get up to temperature, hence get clogged up easily. Which is why you often see fairly new, high-value (often German) diesel cars kicking out black smoke, since they're only used for the school run and trips to Waitrose 😁

[JoeSoap]

Originally Posted by geoffers

One of the problems I see with a non-plugin hybrid is that you're still burning fossil fuel to generate the electricity that the hybrid runs on - there must also be some losses in the internal energy conversion process (you don't get something for nothing, and "can't change the laws of physics" 🤓)

With a PHEV hopefully a lot of the electricity will be coming from non-carbon renewables.

Another issue for low mileage diesel owners is that the engine particulate filters never get up to temperature, hence get clogged up easily. Which is why you often see fairly new, high-value (often German) diesel cars kicking out black smoke, since they're only used for the school run and trips to Waitrose 😁

Valid points. Whenever I search cars to whet my appetite, I always search for petrol models. That tells me something.

[retrotecchie]

Originally Posted by JoeSoap

The cost of some nearly new EVs is becoming quite attractive. A well known car supermarket has a 73 plate MG4 with under 3000 miles and a 79 month warranty for £19,999. Also a 22 plate Corsa with under 13,000 miles and 15 month warranty for £14,599… they claim a saving of £16,856 on the new list price £31,455.

I’m a low mileage driver these days but for some reason I’m still not tempted.

I'm one of those drivers who has a set budget range when I need to replace a car and I find that no more than £2000 includes more than enough used cars to meet my requirements. My current vehicle cost me £500 in 2018 and not only meets but exceeds my needs by some margin. I can put four new tyres on it for the price of one Tesla tyre. Servicing is perhaps more expensive annually than an EV, but less than a hybrid but the insurance is a fraction of the cost of insuring a newer EV. I've done the maths and for the sort of driving I do, the fuel costs (diesel at around 55-60mpg) are only about 20% more than the cost of electricity when you factor in my frequent >500 mile journeys and the cost of public charging at motorway services.

Now, when a decent ten year old EV with five to ten years of useful life left in it can be had for £2k, which meets my needs (750 mile range and/or 'fuelling to full' in under 5 minutes and parts can be had easily in the usual 3rd party market), I might be tempted, but until then, I'll stick with what works for me and what my budget allows.

[retrotecchie]

Originally Posted by geoffers

Another issue for low mileage diesel owners is that the engine particulate filters never get up to temperature, hence get clogged up easily. Which is why you often see fairly new, high-value (often German) diesel cars kicking out black smoke, since they're only used for the school run and trips to Waitrose 😁

Which is why I drive a pre-DPF diesel. My emissions tests at the last MOT in November show that it is actually cleaner than most newer diesels. Sure, if it hasn't been used for a few days and I cold start it, there's a quick 'puff' of black gak from the tail end but that lasts a second and it usually just makes a black mark on the drive. All these new technologies like EGR and DPF are fine until they go wrong and then the potential increase in emissions and cost of rectification rather counteracts any minimal advantages they might possibly give.

But with any ICE vehicle, proper regular maintenance and servicing as well as a conservative driving style is far more important than 'gimmicks' to keep the pollution down to a minimum.