Zonal Pricing - the case for

  • wizzo227's Avatar
    Level 23
    @wizzo227. I don’t read it the same way.

    I'm unconvinced. If CfD were to guarantee the CfD price received by renewables builders, then at about 50% renewable supply, consumers should have ended up paying **about** 50% gas-defined high wholesale price-as-cleared mixed with **about** 50% of the average CfD price received by renewables, with the increasing renewable fraction over the past five years tending to depress wholesale prices toward the volume-weighted-average CfD price. Instead everyones' bills went sky-high in 2022 and stayed up. Something is wrong if the present market arrangements don't pass through the considerable renewable fraction at average-CfD price instead of at top-gas-generated price. This month we ought to have had a high enough renewable fraction to see prices on about 20 of the past 30 days in the low teens of pennies per kWh, after markup from average-CfD price.

    How do present prices compare to what we (well I) might expect ?
    "The market in 2019 has seen the wholesale cost of electricity fall by 25% year-on-year from 2018, dropping from £57.44/MWh on average to £42.86/MWh."
    Now ok, lets base an estimate from seven years ago instead of from the lower price of six years ago. Target inflation according to treasury has been 2% every year, so that should inflate (optimisticly) from £57.44/MWh to £66.49/MWh. Renewable builders might have expected a CfD price consistent with average market prices (before Ukraine), and those had been enough to get projects financed and built. Suppose that got an average-CfD price of £66.49/MWh whenever there are renewables, without markup to top price, mixed with the sort of gas-defined wholesale price which we presently see. There are a lot of unfounded presumptions in there, which finance people got paid to estimate properly, and they'd have got different answers to me reckoning that an average CfD over the past five years ought to have offered £66.49/MWh. Insert better figures here if you have them. The higher the renewable fraction becomes, the more often the "wholesale costs" component of bills could have (and didn't, thanks to DENZ) go down to about 6.7p/kWh. The usual markup applied to wholesale electricity by biller desks ("suppliers") is x2.1, so that would see the renewable part of household retail bills at 14p/kWh at 2025 prices. That is, the increasing fraction of renewables in our supply ought to have decreased bills by more than we have seen over the recent years, towards 14p/kWh.

    I'm not asking government to wave a magic wand and change the movement of money from biller desks ("suppliers") to renewable generators. CfD already written are to be honoured. I'm asking them to keep their greedy fingers off the CfD markup, by which all electricity magicly becomes expensive wholesale electricity to "suppliers" without that payment going to renewables. There must be some reason why most consumers don't get offered 14p/kWh while the sun shines with backstop a gas-defined price when not.

    I'm on somebody else's pricing by the half-hour, which has the opposite problem of tracking the incumbant 2025 wholesale price which doesn't reflect what the renewable generators get. In January that went over 99p/kWh on the worst day, so I just didn't buy much electricity then. Today it went to less than 2p/kWh for a couple of hours, which again is wrong because that isn't what gets paid to the volume-weighted average of CfD to generators.

    I reckon that the CfD system as designed may have been ok for the first 25% of generation to go renewable, but as presently implemented with biller desks ("suppliers") always paying something else, it is not going to suit the necessary transition from 50% renewable to much greater fraction renewable.
    Last edited by wizzo227; 2 Days Ago at 17:53.
  • meldrewreborn's Avatar
    Level 92
    @wizzo227

    Sorry your approach has no validity. I wish you were correct but the phrase apples and pears comes to mind, plus some more exotic fruit.

    I fully accept that electricity is overpriced and customers are losing out as a result. There are many reasons for this and we have pointed out most of them. What is clear is that the authorities are too accepting of this situation, and further than that are adopting policies that will make the situation even worse in future, contrary to election promises of £300 off.
    Current Eon Next customer, ex EDF, Zog and Symbio. Don't think dual fuel saves money and think the smart meter programme is a waste of our money. Chronologically Gifted. If I offend let me know by private message, but I’ll continue to express my opinions nonetheless.
  • meldrewreborn's Avatar
    Level 92
    This presentation may help. Apart from the energy crisis a few years ago CfD payments are made most of the time.

    https://researchbriefings.files.parl...1/CBP-9871.pdf
  • wizzo227's Avatar
    Level 23
    Thanks for that presentation. It saved me doing an FOI query and contains a statement which says that I was wrong to think that wholesale prices ought to have been going down towards the average CfD price instead of going up,up,up,down as they did. Page 11 "CfD generation made up 15.1% of UK renewable generation in 2023 and 7.0% of total UK generation." Something else must be wrong then, since British industry pays a lot more for electricity than anywhere else.
  • meldrewreborn's Avatar
    Level 92
    @wizzo227.

    If future CfD prices fall in the time ahead then it would, all other thing being equal,bring down the wholesale prices. But renewables are not just about the generating capacity, you also need the grid to get the power to where it’s needed- the costs of which don’t feature in wholesale.
  • geoffers's Avatar
    Level 45
    ....Something else must be wrong then, since British industry pays a lot more for electricity than anywhere else.
    With our reliance on imported gas (set to be 70% imported by 2030) to make up the green energy shortfall, could it not be our gas storage policy which has a significant effect on short-term costs.

    The UK has one of the smallest gas storage capacities in Europe, while Germany has the largest, according to Gas Infrastructure Europe. Germany's storage is seven times larger than the UK's.

    This difference means the UK is more vulnerable to price fluctuations as it relies more on just-in-time gas procurement and imports.

    This is what Hansard had to say on the subject on 13 Jan this year (though this was more related to the possibly of running out in the winter than pricing)
    https://hansard.parliament.uk/common...sStorageLevels
    Last edited by geoffers; 21 Hours Ago at 08:12.
  • meldrewreborn's Avatar
    Level 92
    @geoffers

    while the gas storage factor might contribute marginally to our high electricity costs, I think the policy of using energy companies as a proxy to deliver social benefits is a much more important factor. Green levies are also important and network costs to bring the energy to where it’s needed are another.

    I had a brilliant gas contract in 2020, until the supplier went bust when its supplier reneged on its contracts. I’m on a good deal now but it’s still twice the price of 2020 per kWh!

    we’ve also phased out coal generation which I suspect was quite cheap. At the moment renewable generation bids to the grid will always be pitched low as even under CfD they will only get paid when their generation is actually used, and of course CfD will ensure they get paid that price. Nuclear operates 24/7 so will also bid low as will Drax biomass. Gas generation is nearly always required in the day time as our renewables fall short of demand. For those of us on single tier pricing the tariff costs are a mixture from bewildering sources and prices and adjustment mechanisms.
  • meldrewreborn's Avatar
    Level 92
    This quote from the House of Commons presentation linked above is relevant I think:

    The live CfD contracts at the start of September 2024 made up around 16% of all UK renewable capacity. Capacity of projects supported by the previous scheme for large scale renewables, the Renewables Obligation, was 35.4 GW at the end of 2022-23.

    CfD generation made up 15.1% of UK renewable generation in 2023 and 7.0% of total UK generation.
    So CfD is still not yet a major factor in our electricity generation or our prices. The live CfD contracts had a capacity of Circa 9.5GW as at Sept 2024 (not precise - reading from graphs and adding it up!).
    Last edited by meldrewreborn; 18 Hours Ago at 11:50.
  • meldrewreborn's Avatar
    Level 92
    It seems to me that we have an easy split in energy pricing . At night there is low demand and no need for gas generated electricity. In daytime, demand is much higher and, despite solar generation, a heavy reliance on gas generation is necessary.

    Storage is the issue. There are subsidies for heat pumps and EVs (which of course increase the demand for electricity), while battery storage, which would help to reduce peak daytime demand gets no subsidy. Time for a rethink perhaps? My own investigations have shown that solar isn't cost effective due the orientation of my roof faces, and of course is mainly a summertime proposition. Battery storage on the other hand would perhaps be suitable for most households virtually all year, although I'm not sure if flat would have sufficient internal space. How do they compare to say an immersion hot water tank?
  • geoffers's Avatar
    Level 45
    Storage is the issue. .... Battery storage on the other hand would perhaps be suitable for most households virtually all year, although I'm not sure if flat would have sufficient internal space...
    One thing I'm certainly keeping my eye on (with a view to future installation of SolarPV) is the development of V2G/V2X battery storage.

    Whilst not being a fan of total EV (I prefer the flexibility of my PHEV - relatively low milage so smaller capacity PHEV battery suits me) this might trigger me to going full EV. The larger EV battery would obviate the need to invest in additional static batteries, so strikes me as being a relatively cost effective way of combining solar + battery storage.

    (One possible downside quoted is the increased battery charge/discharge cycles can potentially impact battery life. With proper battery management this risk should be mitigated, and even if there was say a 20% reduction in capacity over time this shouldn't be too great an issue)
    Last edited by geoffers; 15 Hours Ago at 14:41.