How to remove a smart meter in a new build?

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  • basin7389's Avatar
    Level 6
    Who cares if they do....

    Everyone wants all the benefits of t'internet for free.

    But woe betide any corporation who dares to gather and analyse big-data, and try to make a bit of a return on the millions they've invested to enable us to take advantage of these benefits for free
    @geoffers It's understandable to see it from that perspective.

    Indeed, many of us enjoy the conveniences and benefits the digital age offers, often at no direct cost to us. Corporations make significant investments to provide these services, and data analysis is one way they recoup their expenses and generate profit.

    However, the primary concern for some isn't just about corporations making a profit; it's about transparency, control, and potential misuse of personal data. It's a balance between enjoying the conveniences of modern technology and ensuring our personal boundaries aren't unintentionally crossed.

    Different individuals have different thresholds for what they find acceptable, and it's essential to respect those varied viewpoints.
  • geoffers's Avatar
    Level 37
    @geoffers
    ...it's about transparency, control, and potential misuse of personal data.
    ...
    Different individuals have different thresholds for what they find acceptable, and it's essential to respect those varied viewpoints.
    I think we're in total agreement here - look at how Cambridge Analytica's misuse of personal data was instrumental in Trump's 2016 victory (oops - used that word again)

    However, this discussion is regarding the use of SMETS meters to record electricity usage and (whilst appreciating that there may be some potential risk of the misuse of information) I think the benefit to us as the end users is ensuring that our limited national grid can provide enough energy by using more detailed analysis of this data to effectively manage the load on the system.

    Most people seem to focus solely on the readouts on the IHD as being the only tangible benefit of smart meters, and use that as the reason they don't want/need a smart meter without appreciating the bigger picture
  • theunknowntech's Avatar
    Level 80
    Gotta correct something here. There is no "Never" read schedule option.

    the unit would still store the same data locally and Comms would remain fully operational. There is deliberately no off switch for any of that.

    Blastoise186 knows more about this than I do.
    Just another guy passing by... The unknown tech way...
    Pete is an IHD Tariff Update Robot! 🤖 Anasa is a Giant Enemy Robot Spider 🕷 🤖 Hannah is neither! Need Customer service? click here! Replacement IHD Guide? Here it is!
  • JoeSoap's Avatar
    Level 91
    @theunknowntech

    Apparently it’s part of the SMETS spec. @retrotecchie started a thread on the subject…
    https://community.eonnext.com/thread...ll=1#post37779
    I'm an Eon Next dual fuel customer with no particular expertise but have some time on my hands that I am using to try and help out a bit.
  • geoffers's Avatar
    Level 37
    @theunknowntech

    Apparently it’s part of the SMETS spec. @retrotecchie started a thread on the subject…
    https://community.eonnext.com/thread...ll=1#post37779
    I wasn't quite sure where he got that information from - SMETS2 spec is available
    here -
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/68898/smart_meters_equipment_technical_spec_version_2.pd f

    I don't see any reference to four modes of data capture....

    This section states what data is actually stored on the meter, so the granularity of the data being picked up by the supplier must be determined by the supplier's particular requirements

    5.6.4.28 Profile Data Log
    A log for storing UTC date and time-stamped half hourly data (the amount of energy Imported or Exported in a half hour period) arranged as a circular buffer such that when full, further writes shall cause the oldest entry to be overwritten.

    The log shall be capable of storing:
    i. 13 months of Consumption;
    ii. 3 months of Active Energy Exported;
    iii. 3 months of Reactive Energy Imported; and
    iv. 3 months of Reactive Energy Exported.
  • basin7389's Avatar
    Level 6
    I think we're in total agreement here - look at how Cambridge Analytica's misuse of personal data was instrumental in Trump's 2016 victory (oops - used that word again)

    However, this discussion is regarding the use of SMETS meters to record electricity usage and (whilst appreciating that there may be some potential risk of the misuse of information) I think the benefit to us as the end users is ensuring that our limited national grid can provide enough energy by using more detailed analysis of this data to effectively manage the load on the system.

    Most people seem to focus solely on the readouts on the IHD as being the only tangible benefit of smart meters, and use that as the reason they don't want/need a smart meter without appreciating the bigger picture

    I believe we're largely on the same wavelength. To elaborate, the situation with Cambridge Analytica wasn't just an isolated incident. It was precipitated by platforms like Facebook amassing vast amounts of user data—sometimes even from individuals who hadn't explicitly provided it or didn't even have a Facebook account. Rather than limiting this data's use in-house, it became accessible to external entities, enabling targeted manipulations based on perceived profiles.

    It's not always about the outright 'misuse' of data but the broad, and sometimes insidious, legitimate usage that can erode individual privacy. This potentially subjects people to scrutiny and different forms of influence, depending on how securely their data is stored and used.

    As I've mentioned, I prioritise maintaining a minimal data footprint. I find solace in my decision to sidestep potential pitfalls associated with extensive data sharing. Everyone has the freedom to choose their path, be it caution or optimism regarding these systems.
  • retrotecchie's Avatar
    Level 92
    I wasn't quite sure where he got that information from - SMETS2 spec is available
    here -
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/68898/smart_meters_equipment_technical_spec_version_2.pd f

    I don't see any reference to four modes of data capture....

    This section states what data is actually stored on the meter, so the granularity of the data being picked up by the supplier must be determined by the supplier's particular requirements

    5.6.4.28 Profile Data Log
    A log for storing UTC date and time-stamped half hourly data (the amount of energy Imported or Exported in a half hour period) arranged as a circular buffer such that when full, further writes shall cause the oldest entry to be overwritten.

    The log shall be capable of storing:
    i. 13 months of Consumption;
    ii. 3 months of Active Energy Exported;
    iii. 3 months of Reactive Energy Imported; and
    iv. 3 months of Reactive Energy Exported.

    I'm not talking about the physical capabilities of the meter itself but rather the software interface layer between the suppliers and the DCC. Meters do not send any data by themselves other than alarms or alerts. For a meter to supply reads, at whatever frequency, the meter has to be polled by the DCC, the data retrieved and then sent to the appropriate energy supplier or other licenced party (Loop, Hugo, etc.). If every working smart meter sent data without being polled first it would be complete and utter chaos.

    According to BG, they are capable of sending the 'Never' option to DCC for specific meters under their remit, and there is a specific function in the software system that simply removes a particular meter from the polling list. The hub is still live, the meter still records what it needs to record, can still be read manually by the consumer for submitting billing reads and can still have the full data downloaded onto a handheld terminal by a meter reader either using NFC or by means of the FLAG (optical modem) port, depending on the meter. But the option to remove the polling by DCC does exist. But the hub can still send alarms such as supply faults, tampering or low battery alerts for gas meters. The IHD will still function as the HAN is completely separate from the WAN communications. So I have been informed, at any rate.

    Incidentally the meters are only polled once a day, no matter whether you select half-hourly or not. The data packet sent by the meter to DCC just contains the stored half-hourly data from the meter if you have selected that option. 18 million meters over either the cellular networks or LRR all being polled half hourly and then having to send data back...even DCC don't have that sort of bandwidth with Arqiva or Telefonica. Might be doable for Vodafone on their 4/5G networks which may be why they have been awarded the new contract. But that's 9 years away.

    Last edited by retrotecchie; 25-08-23 at 01:01.
    Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player. I DON'T work for or on behalf of EON.Next, but am willing to try and help if I can. Not on mains gas, mobile network or mains drainage. House heated almost entirely by baby dragons.
  • geoffers's Avatar
    Level 37

    According to BG, they are capable of sending the 'Never' option to DCC for specific meters under their remit, and there is a specific function in the software system that simply removes a particular meter from the polling list.
    The electricity supply licence conditions are available from Ofgem ...electricity_supply_standard_license_conditions. pdf

    It appears from Condition-47 that the default is that suppliers have licence to obtain monthly readings by law, but do require customer approval for any meter readings for a shorter timescale

    Why BG should offer the option to NEVER poll the meter I guess is up to them, but does seem weird if they don't want an accurate method of billing their customers

    PART A. APPLICATION TO RELEVANT PREMISES
    Prohibition on obtaining consumption data
    47.3 Subject to paragraphs 47.4 and 47.7, the licensee must not, in respect of any relevant premises, obtain any Electricity Consumption Data which relates to a period of less than one month.

    Exception to Prohibition – Obtaining consumption data for periods of less than one month

    47.4 Paragraph 47.3 does not apply where:

    (a) the Electricity Consumption Data that is obtained relates to a period of less than one month but not less than one day; and
    (b) the requirements of either paragraph 47.5 or 47.6 are satisfied.
    Last edited by geoffers; 25-08-23 at 06:50.
  • retrotecchie's Avatar
    Level 92
    Why BG should offer the option to NEVER poll the meter I guess is up to them, but does seem weird if they don't want an accurate method of billing their customers

    I'm sure they would prefer an accurate method, but it's a legitimate customer request to have a smart meter 'disabled' and it doesn't put the customer or BG in any worse position than if the customer has a traditional non-smart meter. MMS or the other meter reading companies can still interrogate the meter on site to give up the stored data by using a hand terminal. So the data is always there and will get through to the powers that be at some point, one supposes. Just not smartly.
    Last edited by retrotecchie; 25-08-23 at 10:40.
  • Grzegorz's Avatar
    Level 5
    @basin7389 - It may be quicker to build lead casing around inside of your meter boxes :-)