[retrotecchie]

Originally Posted by basin7389

@JoeSoap, @WizzyWigg, @geoffers,

These devices are not just measuring your energy consumption; they can meticulously document when and how you use every household item. The intimate details of our daily lives are laid bare, revealing patterns that, when analysed, can paint an uncomfortably detailed picture of our habits, routines, and preferences.

With all due respect, that premise is rather far fetched.

The only thing a smart meter is capable of recording is actual amount of electricity used. They are not capable of determining what you are doing or which appliance you are using when.

I don't have smart meters. Well, actually I do but they are my own and the data generated is entirely within my control and only monitored by my own internal off-line systems. They are for my benefit, not the energy supplier, OFGEM, the DCC or the government.

The meters have no clue whether I boiled a kettle at 11am or whipped round the front room with the hoover for five minutes. They can determine if half-hourly reads are set that maybe I used 500Wh but they cannot tell what I did with that 500Wh during that half hour period. The power recorded is power used but there is no possible way that my movements around the house can be traced to me making a brew in the kitchen or whether I've used a particular appliance at a particular time.

My elderly neighbour walking her dog past the front of my house will have more insight into my activities than smart meters can snoop on, that's for sure.

[retrotecchie]

@WizzyWigg

Smart meters never send anything routinely. They have to be polled. That is to say, the DCC have to physically transmit a read command to the meter, which then gives up the goodies. They do not do it voluntarily. The only thing a meter will send unprompted is an alarm condition. That may include over-voltage or under-voltage status on your supply, tampering with the meter or another fault condition. They don't send readings. They have to be asked for them.

And yes, they are required to store 13 months worth of data internally. Removing the hub would render the meters dumb. It is not physically necessary to actually swap the meters themselves.

The data can still be read via the FLAG (optical modem) interface manually by a meter reader with a terminal, and the customer can still submit manual readings.

[WizzyWigg]

Originally Posted by retrotecchie

@WizzyWigg

Smart meters never send anything routinely. They have to be polled. That is to say, the DCC have to physically transmit a read command to the meter, which then gives up the goodies. They do not do it voluntarily. The only thing a meter will send unprompted is an alarm condition. That may include over-voltage or under-voltage status on your supply, tampering with the meter or another fault condition. They don't send readings. They have to be asked for them.

And yes, they are required to store 13 months worth of data internally. Removing the hub would render the meters dumb. It is not physically necessary to actually swap the meters themselves.

The data can still be read via the FLAG (optical modem) interface manually by a meter reader with a terminal, and the customer can still submit manual readings.

Thank you so much. I knew you would have the answers. 👍
I live in a small cul de sac and you can't get a way with anything. Everyone knows what everyone else is doing. 👴 😂

[basin7389]

Originally Posted by retrotecchie

With all due respect, that premise is rather far fetched.

The only thing a smart meter is capable of recording is actual amount of electricity used. They are not capable of determining what you are doing or which appliance you are using when.

@retrotecchie The capability to monitor individual appliances with smart meters is indeed real, thanks to a technology known as Non-Intrusive Load Monitoring (NILM) or Load Disaggregation.

What NILM does is dissect the cumulative power signal from an entire household to infer which appliances might be in operation and even their specific power consumption. This inference is based on recognising the distinct electrical “signatures” unique to each appliance. As an example, a refrigerator tends to exhibit a specific electricity consumption pattern that is distinguishable from that of a microwave oven or a TV. Sophisticated algorithms, aided by machine learning, are utilised to identify these patterns within the broader consumption data.

So, while an average smart meter may not pinpoint whether you boiled a kettle at 11am or vacuumed your lounge at noon, a system equipped with NILM has the potential to make educated estimations.


For further reading, have a look at this paper, it starts > "The deployment of domestic smart metering infrastructure in Great Britain provides the opportunity for identification of home appliances utilising non‐intrusive load monitoring methods.". The current smart meters are the first step to this plan, check out the U.K. proposal documentation too, outlining what is to come, for those that agree, and opt into it.

[retrotecchie]

@basin7389

The technology potentially exists. It isn't implemented in the SMETS specifications. The meters themselves don't have the electronics or software.

Smart meters only provide NIARTM across the HAN network to the IHD. The polling interval for the IHD is around ten seconds. With the maximum read frequency of a smart meter being 30 minutes, and only where a customer consents, they granularity is insufficient to drill down to the sort of level of usage monitoring you are implying.

It can infer a certain amount of baseline consumption. It could assume you have a smart TV, router or set-top box as a baseline load. It could possibly infer that regular cycling of a load over a certain number of hours with a relatively identifiable duty cycle such as a fridge or freezer means you have a fridge or freezer, but then who hasn't these days. It might see periods over that half hour interval where I've had a few bursts of heavier usage. But it cannot tell using the minimum granularity of half an hour what those burst were...kettle, TV, toaster, microwave or hoover.

[basin7389]

@retrotecchie For further insight, I suggest you explore this research paper:

Excerpt: "In the context of the ongoing rollout of domestic smart metering infrastructure in Great Britain, there's an emerging opportunity to identify specific home appliances using non-intrusive load monitoring methods." The paper further elaborates on how "‘external’ Consumer Access Devices (CADs) have recently made their way into the scene. When these CADs are synchronized with the domestic smart metering system, they facilitate customers in accessing their energy-related data via the cloud."

You're spot on in observing that the core hardware being introduced currently might not have these advanced capabilities. However, the insights from the paper, paired with evolving legislative measures, hint at the potential for seeing these advanced functionalities with the adoption of CADs sooner than we might predict.

Personally, based on the information I've provided and my concerns, I'm choosing to opt out. I prefer to steer clear of it.

[retrotecchie]

@basin7389

I opt out of smart meters purely because they don't bring anything to my party I can't figure out for myself. I just wish I could opt out of the proportion of my standing charges that are currently paying for the whole debacle!

I've followed the research from Imperial College and a couple of researchers in the USA. I'm not worried that the technology, legislation or inertia of OFGEM will see this actually come to fruition in the near future. But even if it does, I'll keep my own smart metering and hang on the the dumb meter currently installed on my property!

[geoffers]

@basin7389

I can't understand what the paranoia with having a smart meter is...

Big brother isn't snooping on you to see whether you boil a kettle at 3:00 a.m.

From what I've read the whole point of the smart meter rollout is due to the fact we've got a limited finite resource of energy which is dwindling by the minute with the removal of fossil fuel generation, with an ever increasing demand, particularly with the growth in EV charging.

So the whole point of smart metering is to enable the load on the grid to be more accurately monitored, and to incentivize the end users to spread their load across periods of low usage.

I personally have just got a hybrid car and I'm only too happy to have my electricity usage monitored every half hour to be able to charge my car after midnight on a 9.5 pence rate.

[basin7389]

@geoffers It's completely valid for you to feel that way and value the benefits of smart metering.

It's worth noting that there are concerns around powerful institutions and corporations having the capability to closely monitor user behaviours. The apprehension some people have is that this data could be used to profile and potentially influence consumer actions, ideally without their direct awareness.

While it's great that you find comfort and advantages in using smart meters, especially with your hybrid car's charging needs, some individuals prioritise their privacy and autonomy differently, leading them to opt out.

[geoffers]

Originally Posted by basin7389

@geoffers .... It's worth noting that there are concerns around powerful institutions and corporations having the capability to closely monitor user behaviours.

The apprehension some people have is that this data could be used to profile and potentially influence consumer actions, ideally without their direct awareness.

Who cares if they do....

Everyone wants all the benefits of t'internet for free.

But woe betide any corporation who dares to gather and analyse big-data, and try to make a bit of a return on the millions they've invested to enable us to take advantage of these benefits for free