[retrotecchie]

Originally Posted by meldrewreborn

@geoffers

There are no proposals for TOU tariffs for gas that I’m aware of.

And yet energy is energy. You would have thought that demand pricing for gas would be a better use of smart metering. If the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, less demand for natural gas fired generation so there should be cheaper gas swilling around for domestic usage. No sun or wind and more gas generation needed, more demand so more expensive for the great unwashed.

I'd personally like to see a rationing for both gas and electricity. 10kWh per day for electricity and 30kWh per day for gas. Per household, not per person. Use less than that and you bank credit against your ration. Use more and pay a premium. Necessary adjustments to allow for medical conditions or special circumstances. The new provider I am looking to switch to does exactly that. Rationed usage but no standing charges. For low users, it's a no brainer.

[geoffers]

Originally Posted by meldrewreborn

@geoffers

you need to discriminate between gas and electric smart meters. There are no proposals for TOU tariffs for gas that I’m aware of.

Did I ever talk about gas meters?

ToU tariffs are for balancing the load across the electricity grid: moving higher kWh usage to times where there's lower demand, thus spreading the load across an increasingly scarce resource which includes wind, solar plus other renewables (as fossil fuel generating facilities are planned to be phased out in the march towards net zero)

[retrotecchie]

@geoffers

We have the capability to triple our renewable generation in the next five years. The problem is not generation capacity but the fact the grid isn't fit for purpose and trying to load-balance across a grid not up to snuff is tantamount to using sticking plasters to fix a broken spine. Better to divert money and resources into building a grid for the 21st century rather than tat around the edges trying to keep it limping along.

Dropping two blast furnaces in Port Talbot and replacing them with an electric arc furnace will cut Wales's carbon emissions by 16% but will increase electricity usage by 21% in the Neath Port Talbot area. The grid isn't up to it as it stands. They tried to replace a fleet of buses in the area with electric buses and gave up on that as the power supply simply didn't have the capacity to run enough chargers. The generation is locally available...they just can't get it from where it's generated to where it is needed without major infrastructure work. 'Load balancing' on domestic meters through ToU won't make a blind bit of difference.

[geoffers]

Originally Posted by retrotecchie

@geoffers

We have the capability to triple our renewable generation in the next five years. The problem is not generation capacity but the fact the grid isn't fit for purpose and trying to load-balance across a grid not up to snuff is tantamount to using sticking plasters to fix a broken spine. Better to divert money and resources into building a grid for the 21st century rather than tat around the edges trying to keep it limping along.

Dropping two blast furnaces in Port Talbot and replacing them with an electric arc furnace will cut Wales's carbon emissions by 16% but will increase electricity usage by 21% in the Neath Port Talbot area. The grid isn't up to it as it stands. They tried to replace a fleet of buses in the area with electric buses and gave up on that as the power supply simply didn't have the capacity to run enough chargers. The generation is locally available...they just can't get it from where it's generated to where it is needed without major infrastructure work. 'Load balancing' on domestic meters through ToU won't make a blind bit of difference.

That all make sense, so can you explain to me why the powers that be have decided to go for smart metering; time-of-use tariffs etc etc etc 🤔

[retrotecchie]

@geoffers

Because of bad political decisions made a decade ago which have already cost billions and they don't want to admit that they got it wrong. They are perfectly happy to just carry on throwing (our) good money after bad and keep on kicking the can down the road.

The powers that be only think as far as the next election. Long term thinking and strategic planning is sadly not something that they are very good at.

[meldrewreborn]

@geoffers. If you read the business case for smart meters that supported the decision to press ahead there are a lot of supposed benefits to flow from it. However despite the rate of installations falling well short of the assumptions and being well behind implementation targets (revised time and time again) they can’t bring themselves to recognise that it’s a disaster. The only saving grace for the Government is that it doesn’t show on their books, it’s all paid for by us consumers- whether we have them or not.

the business case uses economic theory , which predicates up front money is essentially worth more than future money and the program needs to be delivered in a short timeframe because longer term benefits get progressively less valuable when set up against the up front costs.

the theory is perhaps fine, but like almost all government IT schemes, Smart metering has not produced the benefits postulated and now never can be considered to have delivered value for money.

while time of use tariffs might well reduce consumption at peak times, unless there is a guarantee that consumers bills will be lower using those than consumption at standard rates I doubt that many will voluntarily adopt them. There are still millions of customers who have never switched suppliers and who don’t seek out best value for moneys deals.

the rate of new installations is gradually falling, millions of 1st generation meters need replacing because they’re dumb and communications hubs will also need upgrading. None of these factors appear in the business case which now should be revisited but none of the political parties have a desire to shed a light on the shambles that they’ve caused.

[retrotecchie]

@meldrewreborn

+1 👍

[meldrewreborn]

@geoffers so were all the 33 million smart meter all electric meters? That’s why I wrote that you need to distinguish between gas and electric meters.

[retrotecchie]

@meldrewreborn

@geoffers

At the end of 2022, according to The Gumment:



By the 3rd quarter of 2023, the number has increased, but they now include smart meters working in 'traditional' or 'non-smart' mode:



On the basis of information that the number of smart meters not working 'as advertised' is around 9%, that implies the installed working smart meter base is nearer 28 million, or about 16 million electricity meters. The split between domestic and non domestic is about 60:40 so that implies there are actually around 9 million fully working domestic smart electricity meters. With 33 million domestic customers and probably only a quarter of those on anything other than conventional single rate tariffs, you can clearly see that any attempt to make any impact on demand using ToU through smart metering is not going to amount to a hill of beans.

Now take the £300+ that those 33 million customers have each been stiffed for smart metering on their standing charges in the last decade....that would have amounted to around almost ten billion pounds that would have been far better invested in the energy grid upgrades rather than paying for a failed white elephant that won't actually solve anything in the short or long term.

[geoffers]

Originally Posted by meldrewreborn

@geoffers so were all the 33 million smart meter all electric meters? That’s why I wrote that you need to distinguish between gas and electric meters.

👍... Not sure - just found the 3rd ¼ 2023 government report : TLDR, so just pulled the headline stats as written