[Kodak]

@retrotecchie
You raise an interesting point regarding the switching and duration of each tariff.

The dual meters I have were installed to replace a single meter that handled all 4 readings.

Now the two meters (which look identical) manage two tariffs each but they switch at different times (midnight to 7am for E7 tariff, and the same plus 2pm to 4pm for heating on standard tariff).

I was told by the engineer that installed them that he had manually set the times and duration for each tariff and that they'd adjust for BST.

Though the on/off/switch times do adjust automatically for BST, the durations of each tariff never vary.

If they were supposed to, then it means I may have been overpaying due to a faulty installation for years.

So the sooner I can get it switched, the better.

Thanks for the information about the time switch. Knowing that there is a solution is very helpful.

One last point, if I swap to an E7 smart meter setup, will the time switch still function and can I still manually override it for a boost to the heaters at any time of day?

[retrotecchie]

@Kodak

No, the E7 will switch your heating loads on for the seven hours at night if they fit a five terminal meter, but there is no way of implementing a boost function on that system. To do that, you will need a timer setup with a standard four terminal meter.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I'd personally use a contactor to switch the heating loads and drive the contactor from a modern central heating timer and add in an additional thermostat. That way you could run the heaters at off peak rate at night and set the timer for an afternoon boost during the day, if needed, but which would be cancelled automatically if the thermostat deemed the house to be warm enough.

Maybe something that a usual electrician might not be completely au fait with, but easy and cheap enough to implement. And if cabling or running in a thermostat is a problem, a wireless one will do the job nicely.

[Kodak]

@retrotecchie
Thank you!

You've described exactly what I hope could be done, and the thermostat addition would be the cherry on top.

Are there any units you'd recommend that would be suitable for such a setup?

Also, if I add my own timer setup on my side of the supply, do I need to ask eON.Next to install an appropriate smart meter, or will they install the correct one automatically?

Sorry to keep finding new questions, but if I know what's possible and what to ask for, I'm hopeful the changes will go with fewer hitches.

[retrotecchie]

@Kodak

Nothing off the shelf as a 'single' unit, but easy to implement with readily available kit.

I'd use a Honeywell timer. Digital with built in battery backed clock. 7 independently programmable days with three time periods per day. A standard thermostat wired in series with the heat demand signal so if you set a daytime boost and the house is already warm enough, then it won't call for heat. The signal would simply drive a DIN rail mounted contactor to switch the heating loads. If there isn't a spare way in your existing consumer unit, then that could be fitted in the meter cupboard in separate DIN enclosure.

You'd only need to use two of the daily time periods. Set one to come on for the full 7 hours of the E7 off-peak rate and another for your daytime boost. The other advantage is that you can also use the manual boost at any other time to give you a one, two or three hour boost whenever needed outside your set boost times, and you can also override the timed boost if you feel you don't need it, although that will normally be taken care of by the thermostat.

That is exactly what I did at a former property that had an obsolete complex system with storage heaters.

Now, the timer controller also has the hot water option too, so actually a fairly simple matter to replace your existing Horstmann controller for the hot water and give you one single point of control for everything. Obviously dependent on ability to get any additional wiring from A to B.

Whatever you do your side of the meter is your setup. A standard E7 smart meter will just record energy use at the appropriate rates and won't have any bearing on your heating controls.

In fact, if you can post some photos of your existing meter cupboard setup and existing gubbins, I'll be able to suggest possible options, give you some pointers as to what you need and give you some ball-park figures as to costs.

I'd be willing to say, sight unseen, that you'll be looking at around £200-£300 for the materials (upper end if you use a wireless thermostat) and a decent electrician should be able to do the job in a day or less. My betting is that compared to your current state of play, you'd recoup the outlay within a couple of months on the energy savings once you've had a meter swap 👍

[Kodak]

@retrotecchie
Thank you so much. I'll post photos of the current configuration as soon as I'm able.

[Kodak]

@retrotecchie
Here's a photo of the current setup. I've had to join some pictures together to get it all in. The bits with a red x are no longer connected to a supply.

[DebF_EONNext]

Hey @Kodak it's lovely to meet you! I was just about to tag the lovely @retrotecchie but looks like he's all over this already. I have asked our RTS team if there are any alternative solutions for customers with a complex set up like yours, however I think retrotecchie has given you some fantastic advice here to think about in the meantime 😊

[retrotecchie]

@DebF_EONNext

I'm on the case 👍

This isn't actually a RTS setup, but a legacy complex system. A four rate complex meter has been replaced with two separate two rate meters (by nPower) but the system was never properly tariffed. The main meter for general electricity is set up for peak and off peak rate, but the second meter (heating) appears to be on just one rate, which is completely wrong. I'd bet as there are two meters with two MPRNs that two lots of standing charges are being applied, although one may be discounted

Nevertheless, the problem of these legacy complex systems is that they are rarely set up in a way that makes financial sense to the customer. A single Economy 7 smart meter and E7 tariff will take care of the future billing, and I'm sure I can come up with a technical solution to the heating control issue 👍

[Kodak]

@retrotecchie @DebF_EONNext

The description of the current tariff/meter arrangement by @DebF_EONNext is correct.

nPower used to honour the Super Tariff tariff that NEEB, then Northern Electric, ran. Then the original 4 rate meter failed & nPower took the opportunity to force me from the tariff without notifying me or seeking permission for the changes.

They installed an E7 meter and hoped I wouldn't notice that, because the afternoon heating boost no longer happened, the house was impossible to keep warm beyond 7pm.

It took months of arguing until eventually the regulator ordered nPower to restore the original tariff.

nPower told the regulator they'd restored it, began calling it Economy 10 instead of Super Tariff & botched the meter installation.

Months later, nPower denied it was E10 and revealed they'd actually moved us to full price standard & full price E7 (no discounts allowed), & the regulator said because it was a legacy complex meter setup, we couldn't move to another supplier.

eON.Next took over from nPower & now they have told me I must pick either standard or E7 for the supply as they won't allow both after March.

Incidentally, I only learnt if this fact in January when someone at the call centre mentioned it after I rang in with my meter readings.

Nothing had been in writing prior to this point and all I have at the moment is the letter initiated as a result of that phone conversation.

The reason I was given for the need to change the meters is the RTS switch off.

But as @DebF_EONNext has said, it looks as though I'm not affected by the change, so now I'm at a loss for what is going on.

Only @retrotecchie has been clear in their advice on how to change meters.

Information from eON.Next, on the other hand, has been poor at best and, sadly, no one in that organisation appears to on top of the situation...yet.

[retrotecchie]

@Kodak

I have started roughing out a solution for everything your side of the meter, on the premise that E.On Next replace your two existing meters with a single four terminal meter set up for Economy 7.

Unfortunately, due to an incident a couple of weeks ago where a tractor demolished a telegraph pole carrying all 200 phone lines into our village and having no landline/broadband I'm a bit stuck working on the mobile phone at the moment.

But I'm going to scratch something together over the next 24 hours which will at least give you an idea, based on

Honeywell ST9400C programmer, DT90E thermostat, a 63A two-Pole contactor and a few sundries and I'm thinking that if Bob isn't actually your Uncle, he's at least a distant relative and a very good friend of the family.

Based on a regular E7 smart meter, all your electricity usage will work on the two rate tariff, and you'll get the heating on for the 7 hours night rate with the ability to set a boost during the day (albeit on peak rate, but all your heating looks like it's on a single rate anyway), and thermostat override to turn off the boost if it's not actually required if the house is warm enough.

This is what I do for a living....work out technical solutions for clients who are sometimes told by the 'big boys' that it can't be done. Obviously, this is a 'freebie' in my capacity as volunteer 'electrickery advisor' on the forum (although my my 'numbers man', @meldrewreborn, will possibly add his 10% commission onto my services 🤣🤣🤣).