Air Source Heat Pump and Solar Panels

  • WizzyWigg's Avatar
    Level 86
    @Starling

    If two hours of gas central heating can't get the house up to 16°C, then I absolutely guarantee a heat pump is not a viable option. No way. Not now, not ever. If the temperature plummets after turning any heating off, your house needs insulating badly. Get a survey and get insulation done properly before you even consider investing money on a heat pump or solar panels.
    @Starling @meldrewreborn

    I have to totally agree with @retrotecchie . Looking at insulation and heat loss would be the priority given the facts so far.

    The UK have some of the worst figures for heat lost, certainly compared with countries such as Norway and Germany. Houses in the UK loose, on average, heat 3 times faster than in those countries. Norway has one of the highest percentage of heat pumps, at around 60%. With Norway's climate that's got to say something.

    I know that a heat pump will emit heat in most situations, just the same as any fossil fuel boiler, but surely without the consideration of effective insulation would it be cost effective or efficient. 🤔 I think not!

    I do have first hand knowledge, from my extended family, of where the heat pump was installed without the understanding of the importance of reducing heat loss and increasing insulation. In the end the individual concerned had it removed and a fossil fuel boiler reinstated.
    Last edited by WizzyWigg; 08-10-23 at 14:33. Reason: Extra information
  • retrotecchie's Avatar
    Level 92
    @WizzyWigg

    Even the Gumment have scrapped the moratorium on oil and gas fired boilers as they now acknowledge that heat pumps are not the universal panacea. And hydrogen is a complete non starter to replace natural gas. Once the housing stock has been brought up to nigh-on passivhaus standards, then heat pump district heating makes a lot of sense but that is at least two decades away in urban/suburban areas and won't ever happen in the bungle-bungles of rural Wales.

    I'm fully in favour of keeping whatever heat in in winter or out in summer before even beginning to consider alternative methods of heating. And I've seen houses retrofitted to a high enough insulation standard that a 5kW log burner can heat a three bedroom semi with ease. It can be done, and it should be done first rather than just find other expensive ways of pumping heat into a lossy building.

    Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player. I DON'T work for or on behalf of EON.Next, but am willing to try and help if I can. Not on mains gas, mobile network or mains drainage. House heated almost entirely by baby dragons.
  • WizzyWigg's Avatar
    Level 86
    @WizzyWigg

    Even the Gumment have scrapped the moratorium on oil and gas fired boilers as they now acknowledge that heat pumps are not the universal panacea. And hydrogen is a complete non starter to replace natural gas. Once the housing stock has been brought up to nigh-on passivhaus standards, then heat pump district heating makes a lot of sense but that is at least two decades away in urban/suburban areas and won't ever happen in the bungle-bungles of rural Wales.

    I'm fully in favour of keeping whatever heat in in winter or out in summer before even beginning to consider alternative methods of heating. And I've seen houses retrofitted to a high enough insulation standard that a 5kW log burner can heat a three bedroom semi with ease. It can be done, and it should be done first rather than just find other expensive ways of pumping heat into a lossy building.
    Again totally agree. May be not about the log burner though but that's just me.
    You mentioned about companies pushing heat pumps, on average I get 2/3 unsolicited phone calls a month informing me of my entitlement to such devices. Needless to say as unsolicited cold calls they are reported. Not that makes any difference.

    PS According to the actual bumf I'm entitled to zilch.
  • Starling's Avatar
    Level 6
    @meldrewreborn

    Any company willing to push them on a property like that without addressing the heat loss issues first just so they can claim the government incentive money....words fail me!

    That's what has been worrying me....that it is just a case of them getting the govt money and not looking at whether the system is suitable. I don't want to be put in a worse position than I already am.

    There has been no mention of exactly what would be provided and whether it would actually benefit me - that's what made me question things.
    Last edited by Starling; 08-10-23 at 14:00.
  • Starling's Avatar
    Level 6
    Thanks for that. So far I'm tentatively in favour of getting the front lounge sorted for winter, because I like the great big window for light. What's it like in there? When it was 8C, was that unheated unoccupied after you'd been mainly in the other room for a couple of days ?
    What was the date and nearest airfield airport or weather station, or how cold do you think weather had been outside that week ?

    On that plan above, which way is North, and on which side(s) are adjoining house(s)? I'd photoshop the above diagram adding grey rectangles or hatching to indicate neighbour house (much less cold than outdoors) and draw an arrow pointing North. Bins walls and hedges outside alter how exposed an exterior surface is to cold wind. I reckon that I get a tiny insulation gain from having foot thick ivy growing up my north wall, because that keeps cold wind off some of the bricks. Takes some pruning, though.

    To look at roof shape to estimate the solar photovoltaic capability, any chance of maximum zoom of a google earth satellite view, which can show trees and obstructions? EPC people tend to like the minimum to get the "has solar panels?" tickbox Y; four smallish panels near the middle of a great big roof. That is often not enough to get you best bill saving. It is possible that their generous offer to do ?£20k worth of work is going to increase not decrease usual bills by continually using electricity at night time in winter, so post here exactly what they propose before saying yes to anything.

    I'm worried about inappropriate scale of the whole house. You seem to have about 2.5x the floorspace which I do, and I consider this 2-up 2-down as about right for a man his wife and one child or me with tools and computers everywhere. As in embarassingly spacious for just me. For full occupancy and appropriate sharing of your energy bills, perhaps you should need lodgers or part-buy co-owners in order to get it up to usual temperature ?

    As I see it, the photosynthesis capacity of One Planet can support a maximum burn per person, and we should need a lot of decades of using less than that to recover from over-use in recent decades. That can only happen if your usage and bills really do go down. EPC is not the same as bill reduction because they divide the expected kWh per year by square metres of floor space. Too much floor space and exposed outdoor surface area and a good EPC rating is still too much energy needed. To move house to downsize and use much less energy can help the planet but only get the same EPC rating.

    At present I'm inclined to ask about your whole lifestyle and to start from specification of how much space you need (as oppose to have), where you want to be located (walking distance to everything which you do in a typical week?), and how many others like you in your region all have similar needs for efficient housing. It could be that there are lots more like you who's needs define a more efficient home design than what the commercial property developers have been selling recently. This is an open forum and you don't have to answer such. But to describe the ideal improves the chances that somebody might make it so.

    The plan above, though possibly suited to a family, is not suited to one person on their own because all the heat made in the kitchen goes nowhere near the front living room. In my house, much of the cooking heat is either let out by opening the kitchen window or kept in and contributes to whole house warming without using the central heat.

    Sorry I haven't tackled this post yet @wizzo227! Will sit down in a bit and go through it. Cheers 😊
  • Starling's Avatar
    Level 6
    Thanks for that. So far I'm tentatively in favour of getting the front lounge sorted for winter, because I like the great big window for light. What's it like in there? When it was 8C, was that unheated unoccupied after you'd been mainly in the other room for a couple of days ?
    What was the date and nearest airfield airport or weather station, or how cold do you think weather had been outside that week ?

    On that plan above, which way is North, and on which side(s) are adjoining house(s)? I'd photoshop the above diagram adding grey rectangles or hatching to indicate neighbour house (much less cold than outdoors) and draw an arrow pointing North. Bins walls and hedges outside alter how exposed an exterior surface is to cold wind. I reckon that I get a tiny insulation gain from having foot thick ivy growing up my north wall, because that keeps cold wind off some of the bricks. Takes some pruning, though.

    To look at roof shape to estimate the solar photovoltaic capability, any chance of maximum zoom of a google earth satellite view, which can show trees and obstructions? EPC people tend to like the minimum to get the "has solar panels?" tickbox Y; four smallish panels near the middle of a great big roof. That is often not enough to get you best bill saving. It is possible that their generous offer to do ?£20k worth of work is going to increase not decrease usual bills by continually using electricity at night time in winter, so post here exactly what they propose before saying yes to anything.

    I'm worried about inappropriate scale of the whole house. You seem to have about 2.5x the floorspace which I do, and I consider this 2-up 2-down as about right for a man his wife and one child or me with tools and computers everywhere. As in embarassingly spacious for just me. For full occupancy and appropriate sharing of your energy bills, perhaps you should need lodgers or part-buy co-owners in order to get it up to usual temperature ?

    As I see it, the photosynthesis capacity of One Planet can support a maximum burn per person, and we should need a lot of decades of using less than that to recover from over-use in recent decades. That can only happen if your usage and bills really do go down. EPC is not the same as bill reduction because they divide the expected kWh per year by square metres of floor space. Too much floor space and exposed outdoor surface area and a good EPC rating is still too much energy needed. To move house to downsize and use much less energy can help the planet but only get the same EPC rating.

    At present I'm inclined to ask about your whole lifestyle and to start from specification of how much space you need (as oppose to have), where you want to be located (walking distance to everything which you do in a typical week?), and how many others like you in your region all have similar needs for efficient housing. It could be that there are lots more like you who's needs define a more efficient home design than what the commercial property developers have been selling recently. This is an open forum and you don't have to answer such. But to describe the ideal improves the chances that somebody might make it so.

    The plan above, though possibly suited to a family, is not suited to one person on their own because all the heat made in the kitchen goes nowhere near the front living room. In my house, much of the cooking heat is either let out by opening the kitchen window or kept in and contributes to whole house warming without using the central heat.

    Sorry for the delay in replying.

    I'd prefer to stay in the rear reception room, as that way I will be using all the rear of the house. Different rooms have hit 8 degs....I've woken up in the morning and my bedroom was 8 degs, the rear reception room was 8 degs in the morning too. The reception room is the one that has the rad fully opened, but only had about 1 hour of CH in the morning and maybe 1.5 hours in mid/late afternoon. I would then have the gas fire on low from say 8am until maybe 8pm. I don't know what the temp was outside.

    I will try to add to that floor plan, but North is to the left, as is the adjoining property. There is another house about 3ft away on the right. I have a yard with 6ft walls all the way round. No obstructions. Semi-rural spot.

    I'm very much leaning towards not having the ASHP from the company now. It's starting to look like one of those crazy govt ideas which go a$$ up! Similar to the cavity wall insulation that has caused a lot of problems.

    I realise I have too much room for one person. In an ideal world....lol...I would have a small one-bed-and-a-boxroom house or dormer bungalow with a medium-sized garden...but hey-ho.

    Thanks for all your input. Very much appreciated!
  • meldrewreborn's Avatar
    Level 91
    @Starling

    i’ve had cavity wall insulation for 45 years - no problems, but then I live in the suburbs of London, protected from the worst weather. In the wrong place cavity wall insulation can cause problems, and much the same can be said of any home improvement- there are cowboys in all service industries. Fully understanding what you are asking for isn’t sexy but those who do not carry out their own due diligence res es arch are more likely to end up with a cowboy operation.
    Current Eon Next customer, ex EDF, Zog and Symbio. Don't think dual fuel saves money and don't like smart meters. Chronologically Gifted. If I offend let me know by private message, but I’ll continue to express my opinions nonetheless.