[meldrewreborn]

@Beki_EONNext

it is also necessary to understand that things reported in an EPC may not be correct. The methodology generally assumes the worst in situations like unless something can be proven beyond doubt to the assessor, they assume the worst in terms of insulation properties, so things can be better than stated

[Plantagenet]

@meldrewreborn

Aye , and normally written to absolve the surveyor of any come back if the situation is in doubt! But that's just me being cynical after numerous property purchases.

[Mailman]

Originally Posted by Beki_EONNext

This had made me a little more conscious of the energy rating of the property itself. It is currently at an E but has the potential to be an B. I wondered what we should be looking for to improve the energy rating of our home?

I've just dug out my EPC that I got just over a year ago (produced 2020) - it is rated @ 68 on the scale so on the C/D border and like your property has the potential to be a B. Most of the features I had were rated between average and very good. In the recommendations it listed the following:

1. Floor insulation (costing £800-£1200)
2. Low energy lighting (even though the report listed the lighting section as being 'very good' i.e. low energy lighting used in 75% of fixed outlets)
3. Solar Water Heating (costing £4000-£6000)
4. Solar photovotaic panels 2.5kWp (costing £3500-£5500)

No mention made of Heat Pumps.

The big three for me were double glazing, cavity wall insulation and loft insulation - all 3 were reported on in the EPC as being present and it was clear that they were obviously present although condition-wise really hard to know for sure without a full structural survey at the very least.

So if you do have access to the EPC now (I assume you are at the pre-contract stage?) look at the breakdown of the property's energy performance feature by feature as a start and take it from there. Just be aware that you will have no idea of the condition of the listed features or how well each one is working. If the gas boiler has not been serviced in the last year I'd be inclined to insist on a pre-sale service at the very least (if not carried out in the last 12 months).

If you are rated at E this could have a wide range from 39-54 so something is missing from my 'big three'.

If and when you move in this winter, I'd like to give a vote for a 'heated throw' +'electric blanket' AND plenty of low-cost digital humidity/temperature measuring thingies doted about the place. I'm also a big fan of have a wireless thermostat that you can move from room to room. Mine alternates between lounge and kitchen/dining room as that is where we spend most of our time indoors.

Damp is something that can affect almost any home and I recently purchased a Meaco dehumidifier (refridgerant based) to replace my energy-guzzling dessicant type dehumidifier. The humidity has now thankfully come down and almost cured what I felt was becoming a noticeable issue in the making (excess condensation and tell-tale signs of the dreaded M word). The low-cost one I have uses 165W per hour and has been removing water, limiting condensation and lowering humidity from eye-wateringly high levels (down from low 80's to high 50's/low 60's which is where I want it) within 2 weeks. Now starting to be used less and less day by day. There are other solutions of course to combating damp but I thought I'd mention it in case this is something you have not thought of yet (hence the use of humidity monitors).

[meldrewreborn]

@Beki_EONNext

outside boiler? Not a great idea. The boiler itself will be giving off heat which is escaping to the atmosphere that you will be paying for. It would be enough to tip the financial balance to a new internal setup, in my opinion.

[retrotecchie]

@meldrewreborn

I can't rate outdoor boilers highly enough. Given the choice, I'd never have an indoor one again. That's for dragon-fired, of course.

[retrotecchie]

@Beki_EONNext

This is my current assessment for my property, which is an 1800's 'stone and slate' detached cottage. That's pretty 'period' in my book.

I've added explanatory notes to explain things we've done, or hope to. Some things are beyond us.


Ground floor walls - Granite or whinstone, as built, no insulation (assumed) - Very poor

Yup, 32" thick, solid stone walls, rendered externally, plastered internally. Can't insulate the outside easily, can't really insulate the inside as the rooms are already very small.

First floor walls - Cavity wall, as built, no insulation (assumed) - Poor

Upstairs was an 'add on' in 1950. Could add cavity wall insulation, but would cost as much as doing an entire house and would only give half the benefit. But, as the upstairs walls are only 12" thick, there is scope to internally insulate. To do.

Main Roof - Pitched, 300 mm loft insulation - Very good.

Can't fault that. Can double the insulation by insulating the inside of the roof itself with foil backed PIR board (Kingspan or Celotex). Spray foam is never a good idea. You need a 50mm air gap between the insulation and the roof felt. On the list of future plans as I want to turn the loft into a playroom.

Roof Pitched, no insulation (assumed) - Very poor

Not part of the main house, but the (unheated) barn tacked on the end. You can see the rafters and the inside of the roof. It's going to get a false ceiling and insulation at some point as it's my office and a bit parky in winter. In summer, it's glorious.

Window Fully double glazed - Good

To be fair, a previous resident replaced the windows in about 2013.👍

Main heating - Boiler and radiators, dual fuel (mineral and wood) - Average

An old solid fuel stove with back boiler and gravity fed hot water tank, with a backup immersion heater for summer when you don't want to be heating the house. God awful, rather than 'average', I would say. Whole lot ripped out and everything replaced with a brand new oil fired ultra efficient condensing combi, New radiators throughout. Superb and even with high-ish oil prices right now, is around 60% the cost of gas to run. No standing charges and around 8p per kWh to run compared to 10.5p and a daily standing charge.👍

Main heating control TRVs and bypass - Average

Replaced with 7 day digital programmer with weather compensating thermostat. New TRV's.👍

Hot water From main system - Average

Now from the oil combi, all 'comfort' settings turned off and only feeding kitchen hot tap and bathroom wash basin, so no hot water tank. Electric shower, no bath.👍

Lighting - Low energy lighting in all fixed outlets - Very good

Not so good, actually. Improved greatly by fitting far more efficient LED lights. The ones in place before we moved in were LED, but first generation, inefficient and gave terrible light. Doubled the illumination and halved the energy. Just because the assessor sees 'LED' and ticks the 'very good' box, doesn't mean huge improvements can't be made very cheaply. Light sensitive and motion sensitive bulbs used strategically to lower energy even more.👍

Floor Solid, no insulation (assumed) N/A

Solid pounded earth floor, with clay tiles. No insulation, no damp proof course. Poured a new 10mm latex levelling screed, 6mm foam insulation and laminate flooring. Much better, but not fantastic. It is what it is.

Secondary heating - Room heater, dual fuel (mineral and wood) N/A

Wood burning stove in sitting room. Ample supplies of free, seasoned firewood. Winner winner, chicken dinner👍

Original EPC at point of sale in 2021, just scraped an E with a score of 39 . One less point and it would have been a F and illegal to rent. After all the work that's been done? Still an E, with a score of 54. To go up one more point into to a D would need more spending than either I or the landlord are prepared to fork out.

But, with a total energy cost of £3 to £3.50 a day for electricity and about £3 a day in winter for oil, spending a whole lot more for just incremental savings just doesn't make sense.

[Mailman]

Originally Posted by retrotecchie

But, with a total energy cost of £3 to £3.50 a day for electricity and about £3 a day in winter for oil, spending a whole lot more for just incremental savings just doesn't make sense.

A very interesting analysis of the EPC of your property. I'm also of the same view in my 1990's-built semi-detached bungalow in that forking out for anything else ATM doesn't really much sense as the low-hanging fruit has already been done. Interesting to see your actual energy cost and mine is pretty much the same - for me and Mrs MM, circa £3 a day average electricity over the last month but may go up a wee bit more. Gas for combi CH boiler and DHW has been about £2.50 per day in November but I am expecting it to go to £3.50 - £4.00+ average per day as winter begins to bite here in the NE. Thermostat generally no higher than 17.5C during the day with these settings. I shudder to think of how high gas bills are for households that still rely/need an indoor temperature of 20C plus. 20C was the norm for us until about a year ago when the era of cheap domestic energy came to a juddering halt. Reducing the thermostat and the boiler flow temperature has seen my annual gas usage plummet from circa 10,000 kWh/year not that long ago to its present 6400 kWh/year and still reducing to possibly 6000kWh/year if the winter stays relatively mild.

[retrotecchie]

@Mailman

Boiler flow temperatures are a bit of a trick. The most critical part of maintaining optimum boiler efficiency is not just the flow temperature, but also keeping the differential temperature between flow and return at the boiler just right. If you lower the flow temps, with the same thermal load (radiators), then your return temperature can sometimes be lower than the optimum differential and so the boiler then needs to work a little harder to catch up. So if you overdo flow temperature reduction, you end up defeating the energy savings. Fortunately, the days of old circulator pumps with just three manually switchable speeds are almost behind us now, and a decent boiler with a modern pump can vary the pump speed automatically to maintain that optimum differential. But even without that, most boilers have a 'sweet spot' and savings are significant, as you have found.

And, apart from tweaking the boiler flow temperature which is a simple DIY task, it costs absolutely nowt. The fruit doesn't hang much lower than that.

So yes, reduce flow temp and you save money, but reduce it too far and you can go the other way again.

[meldrewreborn]

@retrotecchie

AS my boiler isn't a condensing model, there is no sweet spot to be had. I did though add a sensor to detect when there was still hot water in the boiler after the thermostat had shut both pump and boiler down, and then ensured the pump ran on for a while to remove that heat into the house rather than letting it leak away via the flue. Running my system at a low boiler temperature allows the achieved temperature to be more stable. The higher the boiler temperature the more likely it is to overshoot the desired level - and the warmer the home the higher the heat loss.

[retrotecchie]

@meldrewreborn

Long before the days of combis, and when hobby electronics was still a 'proper' thing and Maplin sold actual components, lots of the popular periodicals like Practical Electronics or Everyday Electronics used to have projects to do just that sort of thing.

As far back as the late 70s, I recall a ' boiler pump run-on' controller that you could add on to your old 'sit up and beg' Thorn cast iron boiler. Those old badgers had a heat exchanger with so much thermal mass, you could run the pump for at least another 20 minutes and still transfer heat energy into your tank, or turn the heating timer off a bit earlier and still circulate water through the radiators.

When I bought my first house in the early 90s, it still had an old Thorn in a corner of the kitchen diner, so I dug through all my old back issues, built the unit and tried it for size. I wasn't quite so energy conscious back then, and gas was cheap. The difference it made was marked. Purely because those old boilers used to properly roar when they were on full song, and by reducing the time the boiler was firing for, it just kept the decibels down a bit!