Moving from day + night electricity to a single rate

We currently have a combined gas and electricity supply from EON Next. The electricity is charged at one rate for night time and a higher rate for day time. The main reason for this was storage heaters in about half of our house, which could charge overnight at the lower rate. We have recently removed our storage heaters meaning that we will not be using a lot of night time electricity and so feel that a single unified rate might be more economical for us.

I rang the help line who had to keep putting me on hold to find answers and apologised that he was simply repeating what he had been told - hence I thought I would try here.

It seems we can:

1. Remain as we are.
2. The help line mentioned a "flat eco 7 tariff" but that was significantly higher daily charge for both gas and for electricity. The cost of each kWh for gas was also higher and the cost of each kWh for electricity was only slightly below the current day rate and so nearly twice the current night rate. There were no other tariffs to choose from.
3. Replace our meter with a single electricity tariff BUT
   
   1. EON Next do not currently offer this service although may at some point in the future.
   2. If we ever bought an electric or plug in hybrid car, we might be better charging this with a lower night time rate.
   
   
4. Explore options from other suppliers.

We also have solar panels providing "free" electricity during bright and especially sunny days.

Have I understood this correctly?

@TWhits Hey there, thanks so much for using the community to get in touch.

So yes, we only have the flat economy 7 tariff available for a 2 rate meter. However, we are able to replace your meter for a single rate meter which would ultimately open up more tariffs for you. There is a charge to this appointment of £157.86 but it may be worth it in the long run? If you have any questions about this, please pop me a message and I'll be more than happy to help.

Beki

@bekigThank you for getting back to me.
1. Surely, it does not require much for EON Next to simply combine the rate for day and for night ie charge the same amount? This way I was expecting a more competitive tariff.
2. I am also puzzled that you now seem to be offering an option to change the meter and yet your help line said you did not. Is this a change or was he wrong?
3. It also seems a lot to pay to replace our meter when the trend (driven by e.g. electric cars) may well be to provide variable rates at varying times?

I changed from a day/night to a single rate tariff a while back without the need for a meter change. I now have a smart meter showing separate day and night readings but pay the same rate for all my electricity. Really don't understand why a meter change would be required.

I can leave my own thoughts on this from a technical viewpoint. But I can't comment on supplier policies because I don't know any policies for any supplier except the one I'm with (which isn't E.On).

If you have a Smart Meter that's currently running in something like Economy 7 mode, it is possible to have a supplier remotely flip the switch to put the meter back into Single-Rate Mode pretty easily (and also in the other direction). As long as the meter is communicating with the supplier, it simply requires a few SMETS Commands.

A MEX (Meter Exchange) is only potentially needed if the existing meter is a traditional (not smart) meter - mainly if it's getting close to re-certification due to age or if it's an RTS Meter controlled by a Radio Teleswitch of some kind. Otherwise, it's generally possible to simply provide the supplier with both readings once on a Single-Rate Tariff anyway and the supplier should be able to do some number crunching to figure out the total combined usage from both registers and bill from there as a Single-Rate.

If you have a traditional meter, it may still be worth having it replaced anyway because it may be up for re-certification sooner or later. All meters have a finite service life and do need to be replaced once it expires (usually around 10 to 15 years after installation). It's one of the only legitimate reasons that a supplier can enforce a MEX of any kind.

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Originally Posted by PaulD

I changed from a day/night to a single rate tariff a while back without the need for a meter change. I now have a smart meter showing separate day and night readings but pay the same rate for all my electricity. Really don't understand why a meter change would be required.

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Thanks PaulD, that is what we expected too. We already have a smart meter (although previous supplier claimed it was impossible to have one with the dual tariff!), but our display does not show the day and night rates separately.
We have had further info via private messages which contradict what we were told by the helpline but our best option seems to be to do nothing! When our account is due for renewal, we will have more accurate information. Until then, EON Next can only base their quotes on last year's usage even though we have made significant changes. Of course, by then we can compare with other suppliers. :-)

Any supplier who claims that doing things like Economy 7 on a SMETS1 or SMETS2 Smart Meter is probably either not telling you the truth (because it's part of the spec!) or is unable to offer such tariffs themselves for some reason, such as their system not being compatible. Either that, or you've got some kind of dodgy smart meter that's non-compliant with the spec.

I have never come across any smart meter that isn't capable of recording meter readings across at least two registers. While it is true that not all Smart Meters can automatically control storage heaters or other secondary loads (only 5-Terminal Smart Meters can do this), they should at least be capable of switching between Day/Night rates regardless.

For example, my SMETS2 Aclara SGM1411-B is only a 4-Terminal Smart Meter, so it can't control secondary/auxiliary loads - but it can support Time of Use tariffs with up to four different rates. However, the Aclara SGM1412-B, SGM1412-B, SGM1616-B and SGM1422-B all have the capability to control storage heaters (and sometimes other stuff) independently of the main load.

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Originally Posted by theunknowntech

I can leave my own thoughts on this from a technical viewpoint. But I can't comment on supplier policies because I don't know any policies for any supplier except the one I'm with (which isn't E.On).

If you have a Smart Meter that's currently running in something like Economy 7 mode, it is possible to have a supplier remotely flip the switch to put the meter back into Single-Rate Mode pretty easily (and also in the other direction). As long as the meter is communicating with the supplier, it simply requires a few SMETS Commands.

A MEX (Meter Exchange) is only potentially needed if the existing meter is a traditional (not smart) meter - mainly if it's getting close to re-certification due to age or if it's an RTS Meter controlled by a Radio Teleswitch of some kind. Otherwise, it's generally possible to simply provide the supplier with both readings once on a Single-Rate Tariff anyway and the supplier should be able to do some number crunching to figure out the total combined usage from both registers and bill from there as a Single-Rate.

If you have a traditional meter, it may still be worth having it replaced anyway because it may be up for re-certification sooner or later. All meters have a finite service life and do need to be replaced once it expires (usually around 10 to 15 years after installation). It's one of the only legitimate reasons that a supplier can enforce a MEX of any kind.

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Thanks for chipping in with some technical knowledge. That confirms my expectations. The meter is "smart" and is about 2.5 years old, so there shouldn't be a problem. It also seems a backward step to lose the "night" tariff wiring when an increasing number of people might need that capability for charging electric or hybrid vehicles.

No worries. I primarily help out on the forum of my actual energy supplier, but I also stop by here sometimes. My username here is different from my usual one to help avoid people associating me with the other side, but the moderators from both sides know who I am on the other side.

Yeah, that's true. But there's always the option of either a Meter Exchange if needed, or simply having the meter set to a suitable tariff. Even my Aclara SGM1411-B could be used for day/night tariffs with charging up an EV if I wanted to. Especially since I could just have Economy 7 and have all my night time usage at the cheaper rate. Plus, you can always have either the EV or the EV Charger do the scheduling so that it starts and stops charging at the right times. No need to fiddle with wiring as such that way. I wouldn't recommend a MEX just for EV Charging though if the existing meter is already a Smart Meter. It's just not worth the cost for the use case. It's actually better for both car and charger to not have the meter suddenly shut them down randomly as well.

With a Smart Meter, the Fifth-Terminal is ONLY ever energised when the Night rate is active and is de-energised at all other times. That's useful for Storage Heaters for example, but not the end of the world if you don't have this (you can always use timers on the heaters after all). Other than that, any Smart Meter can simply flip between the two registers since Economy 7 only clocks one of the two registers at any given time for all usage anyway. Mind you, if your meter is around two and a half years old, it's probably S2 but as it'd have been early 2019 there's still a small chance it might be S1. I can verify that if you'd like me to, but I'll need to see photos of your meters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theunknowntech

Any supplier who claims that doing things like Economy 7 on a SMETS1 or SMETS2 Smart Meter is probably either not telling you the truth (because it's part of the spec!) or is unable to offer such tariffs themselves for some reason, such as their system not being compatible. Either that, or you've got some kind of dodgy smart meter that's non-compliant with the spec.

I have never come across any smart meter that isn't capable of recording meter readings across at least two registers. While it is true that not all Smart Meters can automatically control storage heaters or other secondary loads (only 5-Terminal Smart Meters can do this), they should at least be capable of switching between Day/Night rates regardless.

For example, my SMETS2 Aclara SGM1411-B is only a 4-Terminal Smart Meter, so it can't control secondary/auxiliary loads - but it can support Time of Use tariffs with up to four different rates. However, the Aclara SGM1412-B, SGM1412-B, SGM1616-B and SGM1422-B all have the capability to control storage heaters (and sometimes other stuff) independently of the main load.

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Thanks for the knowledgeable input. I understand that our Smart meter is a 5-terminal one and that it was controlling our storage heaters. This was why our previous supplier claimed we couldn't have a Smart meter "because 5-terminal ones didn't exist"! We have recently removed our storage heaters and so were hoping to reduce our higher day cost by unifying the day and (now little used) night rates. Unfortunately, the unified rate quoted is not much below our current day rate and the daily standard charges and the rate for gas are all significantly higher.

Sigh... Sounds like a supplier who was too engrossed in using the Landis+Gyr E470 then... Which just so happens to be one of the only options that does not support 5-Terminal setups at all (I am not a fan of L+G for many, many reasons). 5-Terminal SMETS2 Smart Meters first launched around late 2019/early 2020-ish once the first models got approved.

I guess I could drop a few hints as to my alter ego though. If you search for terms like L+G E470 or rts meter sunset on Google... Some rather useful information comes back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theunknowntech

No worries. I primarily help out on the forum of my actual energy supplier, but I also stop by here sometimes. My username here is different from my usual one to help avoid people associating me with the other side, but the moderators from both sides know who I am on the other side.

Yeah, that's true. But there's always the option of either a Meter Exchange if needed, or simply having the meter set to a suitable tariff. Even my Aclara SGM1411-B could be used for day/night tariffs with charging up an EV if I wanted to. Especially since I could just have Economy 7 and have all my night time usage at the cheaper rate. Plus, you can always have either the EV or the EV Charger do the scheduling so that it starts and stops charging at the right times. No need to fiddle with wiring as such that way. I wouldn't recommend a MEX just for EV Charging though if the existing meter is already a Smart Meter. It's just not worth the cost for the use case. It's actually better for both car and charger to not have the meter suddenly shut them down randomly as well.

With a Smart Meter, the Fifth-Terminal is ONLY ever energised when the Night rate is active and is de-energised at all other times. That's useful for Storage Heaters for example, but not the end of the world if you don't have this (you can always use timers on the heaters after all). Other than that, any Smart Meter can simply flip between the two registers since Economy 7 only clocks one of the two registers at any given time for all usage anyway. Mind you, if your meter is around two and a half years old, it's probably S2 but as it'd have been early 2019 there's still a small chance it might be S1. I can verify that if you'd like me to, but I'll need to see photos of your meters.

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Thank you for confirming and expanding on my more limited understanding. I think they mentioned S2 at the time but may be mistaken. Here are two photos if that helps.Image 2021-07-31 at 16.54.25.jpegAttachment 137

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theunknowntech

Sigh... Sounds like a supplier who was too engrossed in using the Landis+Gyr E470 then... Which just so happens to be one of the only options that does not support 5-Terminal setups at all (I am not a fan of L+G for many, many reasons). 5-Terminal SMETS2 Smart Meters first launched around late 2019/early 2020-ish once the first models got approved.

I guess I could drop a few hints as to my alter ego though. If you search for terms like L+G E470 or rts meter sunset on Google... Some rather useful information comes back.

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I sense and share some frustration from you. It is disturbing when your energy supplier confidently gives wrong information or contradict themselves. It makes it harder to make informed decisions and can raise suspicions that it is not just incompetence / ignorance but deliberate.

Thanks! Yup, that's my arch nemesis right there - an S2 L+G E470 FOUR-Terminal meter. Because Landis+Gyr is pretty much the only manufacturer who doesn't do 5-Terminal options. That's why there's a separate timeswitch/auxiliary relay type device plumbed in as a bodge to make it behave like a 5-terminal unit. But even then, that can and does cause issues with other suppliers. I've seen people ask about that before over on my home forum. It's also one of the reasons I wrote that huge guide about these meters over there.

The problem isn't the spec. It's the meter manufacturer. If an Aclara SGM1416-B had been fitted, then the meter itself would have handled everything internally, making for a much cleaner and far less hacky installation. On the plus side, at least it's not a Frankenstein I guess...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by theunknowntech

Thanks! Yup, that's my arch nemesis right there - an S2 L+G E470 FOUR-Terminal meter. Because Landis+Gyr is pretty much the only manufacturer who doesn't do 5-Terminal options. That's why there's a separate timeswitch/auxiliary relay type device plumbed in as a bodge to make it behave like a 5-terminal unit. But even then, that can and does cause issues with other suppliers. I've seen people ask about that before over on my home forum. It's also one of the reasons I wrote that huge guide about these meters over there.

The problem isn't the spec. It's the meter manufacturer. If an Aclara SGM1416-B had been fitted, then the meter itself would have handled everything internally, making for a much cleaner and far less hacky installation. On the plus side, at least it's not a Frankenstein I guess...

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Thanks for the explanation. This was fitted by EON who said they had no problem fitting a 5-terminal smart meter! Does this explain why we can't see the night and day usage separately on our display whereas others appear to be able to? So frustrating if this is now limiting our capabilities and our options. At least I think you are saying we have the second generation which should continue to work if we change supplier?